Very Interesting Adoption Article

[PepRMntPatti120]

Cam! I read it all, too! I can appreciate your thoughts! That's what I love about your site - we can share our true feelings and learn from eachother.

I am not saying she is not a good mom - I am sure she is. Like Deanna said, I am concerned about people who project their own feelings onto their children. I've seen hundreds of these toddler meltdowns over the past 20 years. And she's right - sometimes it's something as simple as a Elmo doll. I am sorry, but she is putting way too much energy into this - IMO. She needs to relax and enjoy motherhood before it's over - and allow her child to become her own person - not the person she "thinks" she needs to mold. What is going to happen when the child no longer molds to Moms expectations (which is easy to do when they are small), instead does just the opposite? I may be wrong, but she may be an insecure person, who lacks confidence in herself as a parent.

The situation reminded me of other situations I've seen over the years. The most common being the major meltdowns a toddler can have as the parents is leaving for work in the morning. I've encouraged parents to hug the child good-bye, assure them they will be back to pick them up and be on their way. Without a doubt, the tantrum is over with as soon as the parent is out of sight - most likely before they even get the car started. However, the longer a parent tries to reason - the harder it can be for all involved. In most cases, these children are not experiencing trauma of any kind - rather they know exactly what buttons they can push - because the parents have allowed it over and over - without setting boundaries.

I am full of old-fashioned, well rounded principles.... that work well for me and in my opinion help a child to become a responsible, well-rounded adult.

It will be interesting - for all of us - to see the results of these new "waves" of parenting - say 15 - 20 years from now. I hope they prove to be successful. Perhaps my reservations are unjustified? We shall see....

[Camille]

D - I see your point about visits. That's valid, I think. Maybe waiting until slightly older for visits would be a good idea for some children so they are at a better age to process the situation I don't know. That's such an individual choice I guess. Oh the painful choices of parenthood!!

Pep - I agree with some of what you are saying but I think you're wrong about Dawn being an insecure mom. She's not even a new mom. She has a 10 year old and much like you has worked in the childcare field for many years before ever having children. She's also spoken to an adoption counselor with 40+ years experience. I think she's carefully done her research.

I don't mean this to just you Pep but the responses here and the other places I've read (SoA and the comments on her blog)...

But I wander within each of us... WHY is it easier to assume Dawn is wrong than explore the idea that this child might be grieving?

That's not a critism in anyway. Just an observation & a question.

"new waves" of parenting - that made me laugh. I suppose that's what I would be classified as but I don't really see it that way. What I do is things that are common place in other cultures. In fact, hundreds of years older than the traditional ways we talk about in the "modern" culture of the US (I hope that made sense).

But that's an entirely different topic so I'm gonna stop there! LOLOL I could go on for way too many pages

[icunurse]

I don't think it is necessarily easier to assume she's wrong. It is entirely possible that her daughter could be grieving. But not knowing Dawn, not being familiar with her situation or background, just reading the article plain and simple, it sounds to me like trying too hard to be sympathetic to the primal wound. Again, JMHO and only based on my reading this one article by her (did I give enough of a disclaimer ? )

I'll take it a step further, beyond just adoption - I think too many parents today take the blame or shift the blame for whatever troubles their child. Mom didn't stay at home? That's why Johnny doesn't respect his parents. Mom did stay at home? That's why Suzie is so sheltered. Didn't do attachment parenting and now my child is disconnected from the world. Parents divorced and that's why the kids are angry. There are just way too many things in life that we can blame for our kids "disfunction" and I truly believe that many aparents and adoptees use this one. Again, NOT saying that there isn't a primal wound, but I also think a lot of it has to do with how the child is raised and how adoption is handled. You have poor parenting, you typically end up with problems. You mishandle the role of adoption in your child's life, you could have a lot of problems, too. The problems don't have to be related to the primal wound - yep, they could be the problem of parenting or just plain old life.

I truly think that if you believe or focus enough on something, good or bad, it will happen. If DS has problems later on in life, we'll deal with them. I acknowledge the primal wound...I just don't think that my child is destined to be doomed by it.

[Deanna]

I think I am open to the idea of Primal Wound. I believe it was a year ago or less that I called it Hog Wash! Boy did I get slammed from that statement. But I learned a lot about it and I do think it is something that some adoptees feel.

I don't think Dawn is an insecure parent at all and I think if Pep read her blog more she would learn the same. I think she is very close to adoption beyond being an adoptive mom, because of her writing.

I do not subscribe to any parenting style other than my own so I don't know what is considered new wave or old school. What I do see a lot of parents do, that Pep touched on, is explaining and reasoning with a child where in fact it is wasted words until they are older and they are able to comprehend and understand consequences and emotions.

I acknowledge the primal wound...I just don't think that my child is destined to be doomed by it.

BINGO! Very well said!

[icunurse]

Read this article before and thought it was fitting to this thread (from PACT website):

http://www.pactadopt.org/press/articles/wound.html

[PepRMntPatti120]

Cam - It's true, my feelings are based on reading one and only one of her writings. AND, comparing her to others situations I've seen. So, you're right there- I shouldn't judge her (Dawn) as being "insecure" by one article. I also shouldn't compare her to others. Sorry!

But try to look at it from this point - Same exact scenario but the child had not been adopted and Jessica was just a visitor! I say the Dawn wouldn't of thought any more of it than that the child was exhausted, half asleep and testing Mom!

I would like to explore the idea the child may be grieving, I am not discounting her for that. But, like I said, I've seen it hundreds of times. I guess I base that on my life experience. I tend to put more credit into what I've seen than in what I read.

I also put a lot of credit into how my own parents and other adults handled parenting. My parents had 4 children - all of which they can be proud of. Seriously, not one of us gave them a days trouble. To me, that says something.

I must add - there is no right or wrong. Each of us are individual, each of our children are individual. I applaude every parent who takes the time to develop a plan that works for them - and each of their children. For example, I've read your posts and I've seen many photos of Leah - I see you as nothing less than a fantastic Mom and Leah is one great baby! Cam- You are doing what works for you - and obviously it works for Leah! She's such a happy & healthy child!

Traci - I totally agree with you regarding parents blaming themselves or feeling guilty for challenges their child may face. This is so wrong!

I haven't done really thought a lot into "primal wound" ..perhaps I will, someday. I have to agree - I will acknowledge it - but I don't believe my child(ren) will be destined to be affected by it.

Deanna- I probably should read her blog- I'll give it some thought. But may I add - she very well may be putting too much emphasis on her child be adopted and labeling her as such. In my opinion many adoptive parents put too much emphasis on the fact that they are adopted.
We'll be adopting - but the child (ren) will be ours - and we will love them and nurture them as ours!!! Yes, they will know they are adopted - but it will not be the focus of our life! They will be our gifts from God - and raised accordingly.

May I add - all children are a gift from God. We are given them for a short time. It is our job to raise them up according to God's plan and instructions (Train up a child in the way he should go; When he is old he will not depart from it). With God's help - we can't go wrong!

May I also add - I am not judging ANYONE on this forum - only expressing my feelings and learning from yours. From what I see - you're all wonderful, loving Moms whom I have a great deal of respect for!

[Deanna]

Yes, they will know they are adopted - but it will not be the focus of our life!

I just covered this type of topic on my blog. You can, if any of you care to, read this post:
http://away2me.typepad.com/away_to_me/2006/08/nomalcy.html

I'm a mom and Jake is my son. I happen to be an adoptive mom and he happens to be adopted. I don't need, nor do I want to dwell on that aspect of his life. To me it is almost a kin to him being blue-eyed. I'm not diminishing the impact adoption might have on his life, but I refuse to project any feelings on my part on to him. I hope I was able to convey that on what I wrote in the above post. I really want to create normalcy for him.

[amom4life]

Pep~ Every time I have a thought ...you've already said it! I have to say that I agree with your thoughts on this topic 100% because they are right in line with mine. I gathered my thoughts last night and some this morning before leaving the house and your posts truly could have been mine...only you probably said it better than I could.

When I first came upon this thread I thought I was about to read an article (as in something someone has researched and were ready to back up their findings), but when I got to the page I found it was an entry in a woman's blog and her personal opinions and musings...not actually an article. Which is okay I was just expecting something different.

I have never bought into the Primal Wound Theory or any other theory that points a finger at adoption every time an adopted child has a problem of one type or another. If these problems were being experienced by someones biological child then everyone would say, "oh its just the normal things that kids go through and just a part of life..Its Normal", but if its an adopted child then it is definitely because they are adopted and having abnormal experiences because of the fact they are adopted.

I don't know Dawn ..have only read her one entry posted here and I'm not judging her, but in reading this entry I did make some observations.

It was a long day...the child is a toddler and possibly throwing a tantrum simply because she is tired.Or was having fun and didn't want it to end yet. It happens all the time. I personally don't think her daughter was necessarily experiencing Primal Wound...

My daughter cries when we leave this one friend's house or she leaves ours...sometimes we'll be home and she will start crying out of the blue...I ask her whats wrong and she bawls..I miss Cheryl! So I let her call my friend and then she is better after the call. Primal wound...I think not since my friend is not biologically related to my daughter in any way.

Elijah cries sometimes when his grandparents leave or we leave their home...he cries when Haley leaves for school and when her mom picks her up after school.. this is also not Primal Wound. My point which has already been made here by several people is that this is a NORMAL thing that kids experience and react to that has nothing to do with being adopted or their birth parents.

I will NEVER hold to what so many advocates of the primal wound do...adoption will not scar my children and screw them up for life!! It will not leave some big ugly gaping wound in their hearts that has to be and only can be fixed by their birth parents.

Yes our children are adopted, but as someone else here has said it isn't the focus of our lives(there is so much more to life than adoption!) and we don't treat them as if they are different from any other child because they are adopted. We don't read more into the normal things they experience as children because they are adopted. We treat them as what they are... God's children who He has entrusted to our love, nurture, and care. They are a gift from Him. He brought them to us and it was no accident that He has them in the home with the parents He has chosen for them.

I also had the thought that possibly her daughter is also experiencing some confusion over WHO is her mommy. In reading the blog entry I noted that the mother refers to the birth mother as the "mother" and the REAL mother. If she speaks this way within her daughters hearing I could see where confusion and some frustration could set in. The roles seemed blurred to me and at times even sounded a bit like co-parenting. IMO.

Also as the child was upset the mother was asking her questions in a leading manner... IMO that is putting thoughts into the child's head that she may not have at all and some potentially confusing thoughts at that. She wasn't letting the child actually answer for herself her OWN thoughts and feelings. Darin does this with Annie sometimes and I call him on it every time!
Judy

[amom4life]

Deanna~ Just read that entry in your blog.
Judy

[PepRMntPatti120]

Judy - You're right - we seem to have the same take on these issues - perhaps it's our age - we are in the "over 40" club, aren't we?

Deanna - Read your post in your blog - very nicely done!

[Renee]

I agree ladies!!!! Again, you are using words I just couldn't find!

[Kathy]

I've never bought into the primal wound theory...and still don't. Still haven't been convinced.

When I read the article the first thing that popped into my head is that this little one was EXHAUSTED! Not just physically...but on every level. The next thing I thought was, if this Mother was unaware of such a thing called "primal wound" she would have probably thoughts something more along the lines of ....casue all to often kids just make you do that.

Like today, S went BALLISTIC when I set down a bowl of cereal on the picnic table. She bawled and screamed for a good 5 min. Just example of a tired kid who couldn't contain her emotions at the time

I also can NOT begin to count how many times we have brought our kids home from big days of activities and they wake crying irrationally for long periods of time. Its what happens some times. Another example of overtired kids not able to control their emotions anymore.

We did take H to visit her bmom when she was 3. It was rather disappointing to her and her bmom was not very demonstrative towards her. She talked about it a bit...and we moved on. J also met with him bparents....great time was had...didn't feel a need to talk about it (his choice) He was 5 at the time. And I do think he had some sense of loss at first....as well as colic. H also did....But I think we being her 3rd home in 4 days had something to do with it. But here is my theory buster....S was in foster care 6 weeks...and had virtually NO trouble adjusting to us. And she does not take easily to strangers now either. She moved in and it was like she had always been there!

Primal shmial. I've read a bunch...and I just don't by it. We all have loss in life. I haven't met anyone who had the perfect ideal childhood. we were all raised by humans. Mistake making humans. And we all need to learn to deal with loss...it is part of life.

I realize the prior paragraph will set some off. But, like you, I'm entitled to opinion. And I just dont' buy it. For every example you give me I can site another to refute it. I'm pretty sure...I've been dealing with kids from all over for 20+ years too...and have a degree in child devel.

Grieving? Or just being a kid with normal kid issues. Some people adapt to change quicker then others. And that is a nature thing us that nuture need to recognize and deal with. Took a year of guided leaving and coming back to enable me to leave my son without him going into hysterics. That was his nature...that I nutured. It was NOT primal wound. His cousin had similar and even more severe issues...and she is biologically related to her mother.

Who said love was finite? AMEN sister!

My kids did not lose family...they gained!

[Deanna]

My kids did not lose family...they gained!

I love that!

[Camille]

I have a question but I can't seem to quite find the words or how to ask it!

There seems to be such opposite end of the spectrum in reactions to Dawn's blog post. (I called it an article because she is in fact a writer - it just seemed natural.)

I wish that the focus wasn't so much on whether or not anyone believes in the primal wound theory itself and more her experience with her daughter.

Do we not all have mother's intuition? Is it not possible that Dawn does?

There have been crazy moments with Leah that surprised me. I'm amazed how strong that intuition is.

Leah was about 10 days old and I was snuggling her. We were at my in-laws. We hadn't even made it home from her birth yet. She was all wrapped up in a fairly thick blanket and although she was lying on my chest she's was still several inches from me.

She was crying and fussing and I said to her "You don't think you're close enough to me, do you?" My MIL actually looked at me like I was bonkers. Oh sure... a newborn couldn't possibly care about that, right? But the moment I unwrapped the blanket and laid her directly on me she stopped crying and went to right to sleep.

Leah needed a LOT of physical contact. She still does.

It's a much more simplistic example obviously.

But to me - Dawn's post - was about that. About her bond with Madison, her love for her daughter, and the obviously fantastic connection she has to her.

I wasn't really thinking about the primal wound theory. It did not occur to me to doubt her motherly instincts.

Later when I read the other threads at SoA more came into it.

I don't think Dawn (or I) suggested that ALL Madison's issues were because she was adopted. In other posts she talks about Madison's issues with growing up - adoption NOT a factor. But it's probably valid to suggest that her feelings about her birthmother ARE, in fact, adoption related.

I guess (and this is another issue altogether) I wish that we spent life ASSUMING the best in other people. Assuming Dawn is an intelligent, loving, intuitive mother who wrote about an experience about her daughter.

Why does it need to be torn down and dismissed? What does the help or solve? What is it in us as other adoptive mothers that makes that necessary? (I think that's the question I was trying to come up with.)

MOST adoptees are absolutely fine. SOME are not. Sometimes they have a hard time assimilating life as an adoptee. OF COURSE, there are always other factors... If you're adopted and your adoptive parents beat the living crap out of you on a daily basis - well, you are going to have issues. The issues aren't because you're adopted - they're because you got the crap beat out of you every day.... Does being adopted complicate things??? YES!! Of course! How could it not?

Extreme example obviously but hopefully that makes my point more clear.

I think adoption does touch lots of parts of a adoptee's life. I'm only "half adopted" (LOL) but it certainly had an immense affect on my life. And while it didn't ruin or destroy my life by any means - it does AFFECT it. That isn't a negative thing - the only negative thing I can think of is my mother ignoring that it affected me. I didn't have her to talk to about it and that was always a little frustrating. I had to work it out on my own. And I did! But I'd like the process to be easier for Leah. I want her to be able to talk to me about it. If I'm ignoring it... she won't be able to talk to me. It's that simple.

I feel like I must be cognizant of the possible coming issues (just POSSIBLE issues - it might never matter!) or I won't be ready when she needs me to be.

I hope you all don't think I'm being obnoxious or dense but I really need to work all this out in my head and I can't think of a safer place to do it than here with you all.

I just truly don't understand the automatic tendency to be so dismissive of Dawn's ability to read her daughter.

Truly - to not know the difference between a regular 2 year old tantrum and what she feels happened - she'd have to be an idiot.

And she's not an idiot!

I realize no one has suggested that of course!

But if you were her, and you saw what was said here, wouldn't you feel like all these people were just assuming you were stupid??

Sorry I hopped topics so much. The way my mind goes so much faster than my mouth or typing fingers makes me a rambler outloud and in type! I have to go back and read what I write and then see if I can finish the thoughts at the end. It's messy.



Kathy - I don't think anyone actually said love was finite It just seems like that's often a hidden fear "If she loves HER, will she love ME less?", etc. It was most definitely an issue with me as a kid and all my parents. At some point in dealing with it myself that idea hit me. That and when I said to my mom "I didn't create this situation - stop making me be the one to make you more comfortable with it." (situation being my having so many parents, etc.) Those were two key turning points for me in dealing with my childhood "setup" issues.

Sorry again about the length.

[Deanna]

I'll tell you what I think the difference is Cam. I think, like you, that I am nearly always in touch with Jake's feelings and emotions. I'm with him 24/7. I have not even made a run to the supermarket without him yet. I'm not ready to leave him. I wake up before he cries, or if I'm already awake I know before he is going to cry. I know the difference between a bored fuss, hungry fuss and an uncomfortable fuss. Sometimes Alex is amazed at how in tune I am with him.

The situation Dawn described is something I've seen before with kids. It is not a unique mood/action. Same with Jake, the things he does and my reactions are not unique. The difference is Dawn attributed her daughters reaction to her adoption situation. When Jake is hungry, tired or uncomfortable I don't attribute that to his being adopted.

In a way, because Dawn is a writer who writes mostly about adoption, I think she is more empathetic and sensitive to adoption related emotions and situations. I think she might have projected her own feelings about Primal Wound onto the circumstance she described. I truly believe she believes that was what she was witnessing. If I had never seen a child do that same thing, the same type of meltdown over a person, I probably wouldn't feel this way. But I've seen the same thing she described from children that were not adopted.

That's my take on it. Also, I wouldn't be able to type this on SoA. I could but nobody would pay attention to my words over there. It is a different group of people completely than Tea Time.