Very Interesting Adoption Article

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Postby Kathy on Mon Aug 28, 2006 7:51 am

I miss typed above...I meant to type "infinite"

I don't think I personally doubt Dawn's intuition in any way shape or form. But, because we are human, and Dawn is aware of the primal wound theory...she can add it to the list of possible symptoms while dealing with her daughter after visiting her bmom. If she had never heard of such a thing...would she have come up with something like that on her own? and if not...what other conclusions could she have drawn? I am a good Mom...and usually know exactly why my DD is crying. But not always. Sometimes they are just tired and the emotions hang out. I remember a kid crying sometimes leaving my Mom's house (she did daycare) It was a safe consistant place...and the child went home late in the day....he was tired....he often cried for my Mom....I'm sure it put holes in his Mom's heart....he was not adopted....so what kind of "wound theory" was there for that? It wasn't IMO. This little guy struggled with change. He cried for 6 weeks when he first came to our house....I know because I held him most of the time so Mom could care for the rest. It was just his personality. Mondays were always difficult for him.

Dawns daughter had a BIG day with emotions running high with all the adults she was around. Kids pick up on that so very well and it really dictates how they react to things. She was also trying to wrap her brain around some big concepts. These are just observations. I really am not trying to come down on Dawn AT ALL. I just can't stop wondering what kind of conclusions she would draw if she had never heard of "primal wound".....and that keeps coming up because it is what she labled the article.

Let me go on with intuition....cause I FIRMLY believe we got just as much as a bio mom. I've had numerous icidences where I just "knew' something that others didn't....usually with the health or physcial need of one of my kids. BUT to be honest, I have been wrong too. And totally missed the boat on what they were thinking and feeling.

Intuition is a funny thing. Sometimes you can be so dead on right it is almost scary. Other times waaaay off the mark. I speant 2 mo holding my often screaming newborn baby son. I didn't feel any intuition kicking in...we were in pure survival mode. I was at my wits end trying to comfort him....and I had cared for babies for years....I didn't feel like a novice going in. But the situation sure shook away most of the confidence I had going in. And then we went home for Christmas...and I could begin to see I had made some progress with this little guy. I did "know" things others just didn't. I did. It was just where this little guy was at at the time. Transitions...change....were difficult for him I was to learn (still are but its better) in combination with a BAD case of colic. He would have been the same had he went home with his bioparents...I am confident of that. He was born with this nature. I've nutred it so he can cope.


I do realize that adoption is a loss....and like any loss....people handle it differently....and need to talk about it at different times.....Adoption has its own unique compotents. I do talk freely an openly with my kids about it as the situation presents. But it is NOT a daily topic for them. Not even weekly. More like a few times a year. Mostly guided by them....but sometimes brought up by me. But its there. Like when we went to my nieces baptism and my DD couldn't remember what it was for...and asked if it was her adoption day. Its there, part of their reality.

I venture to guess that people who are now adult adoptees perhaps were not allowed to deal with this particular loss in the way that they needed to. And there for struggle. How very :( for all of the people involved...to have to continue to carry it around like that. Unexpressed. That is IMO another kind of loss....a loss because, like in your example Cam, you needed to be able to talk about it....and couldn't. And so, on top of any adoption related issue/loss, you know have the loss of being able to talk about it with your Mom. The issue compounded. :(

Talking and recognizing each childs need to talk or not talk is paramount IMO. Some want/need to search...others just don't. No one is denying....just feeling their needs and feelings.
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Postby amom4life on Mon Aug 28, 2006 3:09 pm

Very well put Deanna and Kathy! I really have nothing to add you both said much of what I was thinking.

I'm extremely in tune with my kids..I'm with them 7 days a week 24 hrs. a day and I spend a lot of time getting to know them..their needs...their individual personalities. I have lots of friends with bio children who have strong intuition regarding their children too. This is not some deep mysterious phenomenon that only certain people acquire...it is a gift from God and we all have it to one degree or another.

I have raised a bio child myself and I don't see any difference in the behavior of my bio son growing up and our adopted children or My friend's bio children and our adopted children. I just don't treat our kids like they are anything but OUR children and neither do our family and friends...they really don't. If our children do have some emotional problems over adoption in the future of course they can talk to us, but I want THEIR OWN thoughts and feelings not ones I have planted. Adoption comes up in our family conversations from time to time, but it is definitely not at the center of our lives..it doesn't define who are children are or who they will grow to become. There is so , so much more to life than adoption.

I think Deanna has a very good point in that Dawn is a writer who 's main focus is adoption and I can see where it would be easy to project the things she researches and writes about onto her daughter without even realizing that's what she's doing. Suggestion is very powerful especially to a young trusting child.

I just think too many times people read more into normal kid behavior and situations that aren't there because of anything to do with adoption...it's just normal kid stuff. Kathy brought up a good point too when she asked if Dawn had never heard of the primal wound what would she be calling her daughters behavior then? Hmmm...maybe she would just think it was a normal reaction from a tired toddler and not make much of it? I mean that same night she could have reacted the same way to over a friend or grandparent, or cousin..it just happened to be her birthmother. Or maybe it wasn't REALLY about anyone at all and it was just about being exhausted! My kids can cry over the smallest thing out of sheer tiredness.

Oh and yes we keep talking Primal Wound because that is what Dawn is talking about on her blog.
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Postby Camille on Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:23 pm

Well, it isn't what I wanted to talk about :phbt: ;) :hehe:

Actually - Dawn told me (yes I "talked" to her a little) she wishes she'd thought to name the article something else (and labeled the grief soemthing else) because she feels like then maybe people wouldn't have dismissed it so easily. The word's "primal wound" bring up a lot of walls, that's for sure! It seems difficult to get any other point across. I can't seem to do it.

But hindsight is 20/20 I guess. There's no changing it now and it's everyone's focus everywhere I've read. :idontknow:

Ah well.

I liked it. I like Dawn. I enjoyed her perspective.

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Thanks for talking with me about it!
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Postby Deanna on Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:44 pm

she wishes she'd thought to name the article something else (and labeled the grief something else) because she feels like then maybe people wouldn't have dismissed it so easily. The word's "primal wound" bring up a lot of walls, that's for sure! It seems difficult to get any other point across


Why? That's what she is saying she saw. That is how she interpreted her daughter's emotions. Why call it something other than what she believes it is? Why is it even labeled grief? Can't it just be a tired child who enjoyed spending time with her birthmom and woke up from a deep slumber crabby and missing the fun she was just at?

I liked it. I like Dawn. I enjoyed her perspective.
Thanks for talking with me about it!
Just because I personally don't automatically believe that this particular case was Primal Wound, doesn't mean that I don't like Dawn. I also think Dawn believes that is what she saw. I'm glad you posted about this and we could share with each other our feelings on it. Thanks Cam!
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A response from Dawn

Postby moominmama on Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:02 pm

I've been reading this thread and feeling frustrated that I couldn't chime in but Camille helped me set up an account.

I wanted to address some things.

I've been frustrated by people's want to ascribe my experience to being an "insecure" mother or a new mother or to my having been brainwashed by primal wound thinking. Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm not an insecure or a new mom -- I've been parenting for nearly a decade and before that worked professionally with kids (including toddlers) in daycare and as a family program coordinator for children living in crisis. I also taught parenting classes. I've not been brainwashed by primal wound theories. I take it all with a grain of salt and the experts who pin everything on adoption -- from asthma to criminal behavior -- don't do much for me. (By those standards my son -- who was a clingy, shy, worried kid -- acted a lot more "adopted" than his confident, outgoing sister!) But I know how bonded I was to my (bio) son and how bonded he was to me the very minute he was born and that experience has convinced me that there is a central loss when a child is placed for adoption.

I think this loss is two-fold: I think it's biological (babies are primed to bond to the mothers who carry them) and cultural (as evidenced by the statements here about treating adopted kids just the same as bio kids; our culture places a heavy emphasis on biological ties so when we say we will treat them "the same as" we are *devaluing* the experience of adoption by expecting it to conform to the experience of parenting by birth or the experience of being raised by birth parents). I think the first loss hits different children differently and I do believe that children are resilient -- after all women used to die in childbirth all the time and so surely for the sake of human survival children would have the ability to re-bond with a new caregiver. But I do believe that had my son lost me at three days, three months or three years that it would have impacted him and so how can I not believe that it didn't impact my daughter? I don't think this loss means Madison is going to suffer the rest of her life nor that this loss can predict this, that, or the other behavior or outcome. But I do believe she has feelings around it and I think it's part of the reason she cried for the first three months of her life. It does not define her but it is part of her experience and dealing with it is part of the work that she will have to do around growing up.

Re., the cultural loss of adoption is about our social ideas about what is a "real" mom and what is a "real" child. Our children will have to contend with the prejudices that other people bring to adoption -- that they are somehow less worthy or somehow less important to us. In reading the adoption research (by non-partisan researchers -- not just the hardcore adoption grief folks) I know that integrating her adoption into her self-image will be an important part of her development and that making sense of our cultural ideas as she does this will be a challenge. I believe we can help her in this by not pretending that she is just the same as our bio son (she is her own unique person with her own unique and valued experiences including her adoption story), by creating opportunities for connection to her birth family (she will decide for herself how to manage this as she gets older but we're all about making sure that the opportunity is there), and by making adoption a commonplace discussion in our house. (We do not segregate it by making it a special-event topic; for example, there are photos of her birth family around just as there are photos of our other extended family members. Noah considers them HIS family, too, because she is his sister and so we have "adopted" her birth family as our extended family.)

Other things: I don't actually write that much about adoption professionally (I've written two essays and am working on an assignment about challenges to open adoption); I've written far more on pregnancy (I used to be on the masthead of a now defunct pregnancy magazine) and parenting. My blog is adoption-centric just because that's where I like to kick around ideas. To read it you would get the idea that adoption is a bigger part of our everyday lives but that would be a mistaken assumption. Madison's life story is much more integrated to our family living than it would appear here. So again, the idea that I'm just so steeped in adoption that it's made my brain work funny is just plain out wrong.

Jessica's visits (Madison's first mom) aren't really special events. She lives here in town and will come by on a moment's notice or we'll swing by her work just to say hi. In other words, the big day Madison had with Jessica wasn't a particularly more special day than any other time we've seen her or at any other time when we've been running around. (We're homeschoolers -- every day is crazy!) What was different about this day is that Madison for the first time "clicked" that she was in Jessica's uterus. (We use the right terms for bodies because if you say "You were in her belly" it sounds like you were eaten like a sandwich!) We'd been talking about babies a bunch anyway because Noah's best friend's mom was pregnant and Madison, like a lot of 2 or 3-year olds, was all about the baby in there.

My original reaction when she cried was what you guys have said: she's over-tired, she's just feeling cranky, etc. But Madison is not one who cries when she's overtired (she gets hyper) and when she does cry, she cries for anger. The tone and intensity of her crying was very very very very different from her typical tantrums and my gut told me this was about waking up and Jessica being gone and it reminding her of being a baby and waking up and Jessica being gone. So that's why I told her the story and that's why I said, "And sometimes you still miss Jessica, sometimes you still wish you were her baby." Then her whole demeanor changed -- her body absolutely relaxed, her crying softened and it was clear I'd nailed it. You don't have to believe me -- what you believe has nothing to do with what happened -- but there it is.

Since then I talked to another mother of a (internationally adopted so essentially closed) child who had the exact same sort of reaction after watching a kid's movie where the mom was lost and the child was adopted. She sent me her journal entry on it and it was eerie how similar it was to Madison's reaction. I have heard from other moms, too, who at different ages have had similar experiences. It's been very eye-opening.

Then for this open adoption article I spoke with Sharon Roszia who is part of the Kinship Center in California. She's a counselor who has been working with adopted families (adoptees, adoptive parents and some with birth parents) for about forty years. I asked her for her take and she was very encouraging about how we handled it. She said that the reason Madison might have done this earlier than a lot of kids is that 1) she's pretty bright (really -- she's been developmentally ahead since she was born) and 2) we are a family who is comfortable talking about adoption. (This was a GOOD thing, she said.) She said this kind of response is more common in a 4 or 5 year old but that it IS typical whether or not the adoption is open or closed.

So if seeing Jessica was this upsetting, why don't we limit visits? Well first off, as Sharon indicated and as my friend's experience (with her internationally adopted daughter) shows, the visit may have been the trigger but it wasn't the *cause.*

Finally, amom4life said she thought Madison might be confused over who her "real" mother is. Ummm, no. (I think she may have said this because I said in my entry that Jessica was her "real mother" and that was to emphasis my strong belief that adoption severs a relationship that is central -- that of an infant from her mother.) Terminology is so limited and that word -- mother -- sometimes doesn't seem big enough. As I've written before (on blog and in my Salon essay) -- I am Madison's verb mother by virtue of mothering her. She knows that when she wakes up in the middle of the night, I will be there. If she is hungry, I will feed her. If she is scared, it's my lap she craves. But Jessica is her noun mother. She is the woman who gave birth to her and she *is* a mother as well but she does not do mothering. I think adults have a much more difficult time of understand this than do either of my kids. Madison has never mistakenly run to Jessica when she wanted me. When I flew with Jessica to meet her extended family we three (Madison, of course, came along, too) spent A LOT of time together but Madison never once reached for her instead of me; she knows who her mommy is but that doesn't erase the pain of *losing* a mother when she was three days old. I disagree with the poster who said, "My children didn't lose; they gained a family!" Your children DID lose a family. That says nothing about what they gained -- they are separate events. I wrote more about that here:
http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2006/07/2 ... verbosity/
(although my site is hosed right now and I'm not sure when the admins will have it back up)

I don't think this is adoptive family vs. birth family. How Madison grows to feel about her adoption and her birth family ultimately has no impact on how she feels about me and her father and her brother. She has room to feel lots of different ways about all of the. She can see Jessica as her "real" mother without seeing me as her fake or imaginary mother. (This is what I mean about rotten terminology.) I'm not hung up on "winning" some competition to prove that I'm more real than Jessica. It doesn't matter to me. I get the great privilege of mothering this fabulous child and the tremendous joy of being witness to her growing up. I am her mother. Nothing erases that. At the same time, I didn't give birth to her, I didn't contribute to her genetically and that's ok. I honor and respect her birth story and I honor and respect her unique genetic heritage. I can acknowledge her loss without putting down her entry into our family just as I can celebrate her arrival without pretending that it erases the things she was forced to leave behind.

As Camille mentioned, I would have changed the name to "adoption grief" instead of primal wound had I to do it over again because people hear that phrase "primal wound" and just shut down as folks are doing here; not because I'm changing my mind about what the experience was illustrating.

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Postby Deanna on Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:37 pm

I disagree with the poster who said, "My children didn't lose; they gained a family!" Your children DID lose a family. That says nothing about what they gained -- they are separate events.


No, my son didn't loose his family, he did in fact gain family. He is now a part of our family. He will always be a part of his natural family as well, but he hasn't lost them.

I would have changed the name to "adoption grief" instead of primal wound had I to do it over again because people hear that phrase "primal wound" and just shut down as folks are doing here; not because I'm changing my mind about what the experience was illustrating.


So are you calling primal wound - adoption grief?

I still have issues with the primal wound theory. I'm not saying I don't believe it, I'll stay open to the idea, but I'm not yet convinced. If children (or adults) have the ability to remember loss at 3 days of age, don't you think we would see more cases of this outside of adoption? It might sound silly, but what about circumcision? Wouldn't more males have serious penis issues if they could remember that type of loss/pain from 3 days old? Seriously.

What about children who undergo major surgery shortly after birth and are in NICUs and parents can't even touch them, are they not effected by the same loss/pain?

You know your daughter better than anyone, but I've seen the same scenario you described by at least 3 kids I've been around a lot. If you had never heard the theory of Primal Wound, what would have assumed it was?
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Postby moominmama on Tue Aug 29, 2006 4:01 pm

Oh Deanna! I'm not going to touch the circumcision discussion! You're on Mothering -- you know what that turns into! :haha:

I've seen the scenario I've described (you know, crying toddler) a zillion times, too. But that's like saying, "Hey, I've seen women sob before -- doesn't mean that woman whose toe was just run over by a bus is in pain!" I mean, so what? Like I said, you're not Madison's mother so there's no harm done if you don't agree with my take on things and you weren't there and haven't met her so you know, I take it with a grain of salt. :D

I do still argue that any kid who is adopted loses a family. Madison, as you know, has way more contact with her first family but she lost GROWING UP with them. She lost waking up every day and seeing herself mirrored by the people around her. That's a real loss.

I like the way this article discusses it so I'll let it do the talking for me:
http://www.enotalone.com/article/4571.html

Yes, I do believe babies can experience loss at three days of age. I believe this because I believe babies are primed to bond with the women who carry them. I know that Noah recognized my voice, smell and the way I moved and walked (you can read more about this in Jennifer Margulis's book "Why Do Babies Do That") and I know that this is what babies are meant to do. And so I believe that when they don't have that, it's a loss. Do they remember it? Not the way I remember what I had for dinner last night or when I learned there was no Santa etc. but I think it brings an extra task to their development and I think how babies handle that task depends on who they are, how their adoption played out, what their in-utero environment was like and how their adoptive families handle it.

(And then, like I said, there are the cultural assumptions about adoption, which bring their own challenges but are separate from these primal wound/adoption grief ones.)
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Postby Deanna on Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:11 pm

I'm not going to touch the circumcision discussion! You're on Mothering -- you know what that turns into!


According to most of the mothers on Mothering I'm a heathen for not vaxing Jake. :haha:
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Postby icunurse on Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:20 pm

Hi, Dawn - welcome! :)

While I think I take a middle-ground approach to this topic (I do believe that there could be a "primal wound" or whatever we want to call it, but I don't think it affects every child), I think the way the questions were worded is what made me question how much of this was "normal, overtired" child vs a child experiencing loss. Not directing this towards you personally, as only you know your child, but towards anyone who would go through the same experience...While I know that the verbal skills of even an advanced child are still limiting to truly expressing themselves, I also question how much agreement there would have been if you had just kept going on and saying "and do you miss seeing___?" or "do you feel ____?" I guess from my professional standpoint, we have been taught to not put words into someone's mouth or give leading questions to someone, even when that "someone" is a small child. Too easily, a person of any age, under emotional distress (for whatever reason) and exhaustion will agree to things all too readily and thereby not give an accurate answer to what is truly wrong.

Even in my work with adults, I can ask "are you in pain?" or "are you scared?", but to ask someone "are you scared of seeing your wound?" could very well have them agree to something that they may or may not be feeling (they may be scared of seeing their wound, but it is not why they are currently upset). I guess for me, personally, I would believe it more and perhaps be able to relate to it better if the questions had been open-ended...

I also don't know if I so much agree with you concerning the feelings of loss at such a young age. I understand the essence of bonding and the loss of a familiar smell or sound. But I also question how that is applied to bio dad's (who obviously don't carry the baby and probably contribute less to the sounds a baby hears before birth), babies born by surrogate, or babies who are born and for whatever reason cannot be held and loved by their bioparents after birth (such as a sick baby, etc). To apply that to all means that probably half the population has "loss" at birth and they are "grieving". I'm not sure how I feel taking that info and putting yet another adoption label on to it. Kids who were adopted already get so many labels and syndromes and stereotypes - I just don't feel that they should get another one.

So agree to disagree, I guess. :)
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Postby amom4life on Tue Aug 29, 2006 7:22 pm

Dawn~
I wouldn't say that people who are participating in this thread are "shutting down" just because we may not be on the same page with how you feel about what happened with your daughter or how the original poster thinks and feels about it. We are individuals with our own thoughts, feelings, and beliefs.

I read your post and we can change the title to whatever, but it still means the same thing and hasn't changed my thoughts on it because we just believe differently and that's okay. I could change my name to Betty...but I would still be Judy just with a different name.
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Postby Kathy on Tue Aug 29, 2006 8:01 pm

I am the poster who said my kids "gained family"....and I still like to think of it that way. It is more positive...there are enough negatives in adoption...and IMO still very true. My children did gain family...and their birth families did not cease to exist because of it. They are still out there...and like you said...my children will someday decide just what they want to do with those relationships for their own personal selves. My role there will be to continue to support and Mother them (I do like your description of Mothers being verbs....it definately is an action thing) I do agree that they lose the opportunity to grow up in their birth families....for better or for worse. But for many kids adopted today...they do not lose their birthfamilies. Contact is very readily available.

I also agree with the fact that infants recognize the mother that carried them from birth. I think it is a facinating thing. I think some babies are born with feelings of being unwanted from Mothers who hated being pregnant and hated the child they carried. I do believe they "know" in ways we don't understand always just what is going on. BUT I think the experience is unique to every child. Some by their very nature struggle to adjust...some don't. But like Traci...just how significant is it really? Many many many kids do not get held and bonded with right from the start...most recover just fine. Just how big a loss is it? Is it bigger because we want it to be? Because the something lost is a human something and therefore is should mean more? Do we really know how important inutero bonding is? Is there inutero bonding? Or is just merely recognition of something heard or smelled before. Like a lavendar lotion I used on vacation brings back memoreis of that vacation when I smell it. A recognition...but how much meaning is there with it?

My son was IMO premature by a few weeks. We were not privy to his hospital records (not a positive experience) but he was very small. His bmom said she didn't know she was pg...was thrown from a horse a short time before delivery....whether she was in denial or what I dont' know...doesn't really matter...but she didn't bond with him in the womb or out...she never held him. He spent 2 days in the hospital nursery where we held him a few hours each day...(greatful to be allowed that :rolleye:) We brought him home about 7...all was well until 11 when he started to scream until about 6...and fell asleep from utter exhaustion. Loss? Could be. Why didn't he cry like that in the hospital though....he was alone much of the time. I won't ever know for sure. I was a very nieve first time adoptive Mom at the time. Well schooled in child devel...and care...had been doing that for years....that his problems could be adoption related never dawned on me at the time. Not once. Ped diagnosed colic which he had...for 6 mo...classic case. Once he put on a little weight he was an all around happy (very Mommy attached) little guy.

I was also the one...and Deanna reasked....
If you had never heard the theory of Primal Wound, what would have assumed it was?


I also want to clarify that I am not saying in any way shape or form that your experience was wrong misinterpreted or any such anything. I don't know you, your daughter and sure wasn't there.

I just wonder for my own sake. Sometimes ignorance IS bliss. Caring for other peoples children certainly does help prepare you for the basics or child rearing...but it is NOT the same as parenting your self by any streach. I look back on my first year as a parent and marvel at all we learned together. This constantly crying fussy baby who had trouble eating, pooping, sleeping, changing environments, the car stopping, the car going, chaging arm positions, changing clothes, the sun setting, the sun rising...you get the picture! Had I been told about primal wound theory it may have pushed me over the edge....I was teetering there a number of times. I wanted so much to comfort my baby...and I was to a degree....he screamed louder if I wasn't holding him....I think that I would have joined him in constant crying if I would have thought we had a part in somehow wrecking him for life. Looking back I can see that he was colicy...he grew out of it. He also had trouble with transitions....we learned to deal with that. The combo of those to issues IMO was the cause of his crying. We learned to deal with those things by trial an error and things improved. I don't think his crying would have been any different had he lived with his bio familiy. He would have still had colic...he would still have had trouble with ANY kind of transition....he would have cried for hours....just like he did for us.

As it is...from what I know of primal wounds...I just don't buy that adoption into loving homes does what these theorist claim. I just don't and doubt very highly I ever will. I think there DEFINATELY is other contributing factors....loss upon loss...abuse...that can be result in people feeling the way they do....and adoption....the almighty dumping ground gets it again.

Adoption grief may have indeed been a more suitable title for you essay. It sure is a fine line though. You said that you initially did attribute it to tiredness...but changed after talking things through with your daughter....it sure is a fine line sometimes...supportive...leading them/encouraging them to talk...it is just hard sometimes and it does seem that "issues" oftne come up when we are tired, they are tired or you are busily managing 3 kids in a grocery store...mine suddenly out of the blue asked about her bfather...she was 5 at the time and I just let her go and say what she was feeling...partly because at the moment it couldn't have been further from my mind.


I don't want to pick on another mother....that was never my intent. I don't know you....your article/essay brought up some points (obviously) but attacking you or assuming you didn't know what you were talking about was not what I was getting at.

Like I said....if you didn't know about adoption grief...or primal wound theory....what would you have thought? Done? Realizing you can't unknow what you know.....so totally theorizing here. Not judging, or at least not trying to.
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Postby amom4life on Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:23 pm

Dawn~ I want to be sure to let you know my posts also were not to attack you, judge you, or tell you you are wrong about what happened in your experience. It's what you believe happened and that's okay. I'm not trying to shove my views down your throat or try to get you to change what you believe. I was just sharing my views and thoughts and they just happen to differ from yours and Cam's.

I don't want this to become another one of those.. People disagree on subject = attacking. :nono:
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Postby PepRMntPatti120 on Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:33 pm

I truly do not have anything further to say regarding the subjects addressed. Like the rest - I gave my opinions and feelings. I was an open as possible. . because I thought our honest opinions is what was being sought.

I didn't feel anyone was attacking the "author" - just giving opinions of how they felt about the situations. But, I understand the author felt attacked. For that, I am sorry. Keep in mind - we were commenting on the article and ....we were never told Dawn was reading the thread.

Out of NOWHERE she jumps on board (after lurking the whole time) ..very sneakily done, in my opinion. I just want to say I thought this was very unfair to the members - and I am sure I am not the only one who feels this way. I just may be the only one to admit it ;).

Just my 2 cents.....
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Postby amom4life on Tue Aug 29, 2006 11:55 pm

Pep~ I will admit that I felt a little put off when I saw Dawn here on this thread(nothing personal Dawn normally I would have welcomed you with open arms) because I didn't feel like she would be here posting or interested in Tea Time if not for this thread( because she has never posted here before and only signed up after this thread started, and has only posted on this thread) and that she was probably asked to come.

So it all just felt a bit contrived to me and like this was really being pushed on us because the thread wasn't going in the "right" direction. Sorry Cam...you know I love you much , but that's truly how this feels to me. I'm not sure why this is being pushed so hard?

Dawn~ I do apologize for not being very friendly...this just didn't feel right for the reasons I mentioned above. I guess it felt set up.
Judy
"I'm convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it."
~Charles Swindoll~

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:pray: Our house sells in God's perfect timing! :pray:
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Postby Camille on Wed Aug 30, 2006 1:55 am

Sneakily done? :o

Wow.

I have to say - I'm a little shocked that you would say something so rude.

When you have a blog you can see where all your traffic is coming from. When I placed a link here and everyone started going to read - automatically Dawn would be able see "adoptionteatime.com" coming up in her stats all the sudden.

Obviously this would make a person curious.

Dawn wanted to comment earlier but was having trouble getting the registration page to work. (which - I have discovered - was actually broke :hair: - I've changed the settings to work around the broken part now so people can join if they wish.)

It was all very innocent. That is just the way the timing worked out.

ASKED TO COME?

You can only be suggesting that I asked her here. I'm assuming that's why you apologized up front.

I'm really so offended I don't know what to say. I suppose I'm hurt that you all don't think better of me than that.

Nothing SNEAKY or CONTRIVED happened here. You all are "seeing" things in my (and Dawn's) actions that don't exist.

Thanks for thinking so highly of me.

That's just great. I suppose two years of daily interaction with most of you suddenly is nothing when two people decide you can be sneaky and contrived. :broken:

My feelings are so hurt. Unbelievable.
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