Very Interesting Adoption Article

[moominmama]

It's what Camille said, re., reading this post. (This is something good for folks to know -- people can follow a link back to where the link was posted and read what's going on. If I link to someone, I always assume they will read where I've linked -- I learned this the hard way before I had my own stats program.)

I asked Camille to post something for me (I even left a message at the bottom of the primal wound post pointing to another post for teatime visitors!) and she offered to just add me.

It's a public board (there are a lot of people reading this post actually who aren't on the board).

I appreciate some of the thoughtful posts in response to what I've written on the board and also understand that people, looking only at what I've written on that one post (I've got a blog full of parenting and adoption talk that gives a better but still incomplete picture of who we are) aren't going to agree with me. It sounds like many of us have fundamentally different philosophies about what it means to be an adoptive parent.

Anyone is welcome to read my blog and "talk" to me there through comments are talk to me via email. I'll stop reading here once this thread shuts down (I'm still interested in seeing what happens next) but will respect your social space outside of it.

Dawn

[sadiegirl]

Cam,

I won't presume to speak for the others but as someone who's been lurking on this thread, it did APPEAR that this was started for debate and then when no one was "agreeing" with it, here comes a post from the author.

I don't think (nor do others think, IMO) that you were being "sneaky"; we just weren't aware of the circumstances involved with how Dawn posted here suddenly.

I hope that makes sense.

[Kathy]

woah guys! I'm shocked to! Shcocked that people are upset that the author of an article being discussed could possibly show up. Why wouldn't she?

This is a public forum...I figured from the start that Dawn would eventually get here...either by invite (which is fine IMO...it is a public forum that all are welcome to) or by plain curiosity because of the blog, and because it is being discussed elsewhere.

Heck, I'm glad she came if she discovered that registration was out of wack.

This was/is a discussion thread in a public place....you had to think the possiblility that Dawn would eventually show up to be real. Cam said she had talked with her previously. I was not surprised at all. Excited really because now we can talk directly and not just speculate.

And welcome Dawn. I may not agree with everything you say....and you many not agree with what I say...but as long as respect remains...I hope you do to.

Also I don't think Cam brought her in to bolster her case. And whats the big deal if she DID invite Dawn. Whether she did or didn't really isn't the point. She was had a perfect right to. Again...it is a public forum!!! What I think (and correct me if I am wrong Camille) is she just didn't want the thread to derail into primal wound theory junk....unless I am missing my guess. She wanted to talk about Mothers intuition in adoption and the grief that can come with adoption...right Camille? Dawn was reading and wanted to defend her position...in a public forum...which again is her right!

Come on guys! and make up!

[Deanna]

I for one fully expected Dawn to read and comment here from the moment the thread was posted. In fact, I was surprised it took so long. I don't think Cam did anything sneaky and to be quite honest I'm a little disappointed that anyone would assume such. I almost thought I should tell Dawn about it after the first day that it was up and she had not commented, but I got busy and didn't. I'm not going to turn this thread into an attack/defense of Camille or Dawn.

The thread is and should remain about the article that Dawn wrote and that Camille wanted to discuss. I think our conversation on this has been cordial and educational. I think we have been able to express our opinions without attacking anyone. Also, anytime you post anything on the Internet you MUST ASSUME that ANYONE and EVERYONE will read it.

[Camille]

Sadie - it isn't that I don't see your point. It's just the the point hurts my feelings. I've never done anything on this forum (or in my everday life) that would make anyone think I was sneaky or contrived - or would do anything sneaky or contrived. I'm a very "real" person. I don't do crap like that. If I was going to invite Dawn specifically because I was all alone in my views, I would have said something.

I was mostly alone in how I viewed this information and that did not bother me ONE BIT! I'm a strong woman. I can take it. It didn't matter and still doesn't. I feel the way I feel. It's thought out, researched, and intelligent. I'm a very opininated woman. And you can all disagree with me and I won't mind! You can do the same research and have a different opinion. It doesn't invalidate me or make me upset. I won't even melt. It's fine.

Kathy - You're correct. I just didn't want to have a full primal wound debate. It's been done. It'd be like beating a dead horse. I had never seen an amom so clearly express an incident like this and I was very interested. That's it.

I too wish this thread had just stayed about the article and the opinions about what some people THOUGHT I did had stayed away.

I really loved how everyone had handled themselves up to this point. I was proud of us. Now I'm feeling sad and a little embarassed for our forum.

And Deanna's right - you have to assume someone is reading it. We love our forum - we all do. But it isn't a private site. We have guests here reading all day, every day. We shouldn't forget that so easily.

[moominmama]

I am the poster who said my kids "gained family"....and I still like to think of it that way. It is more positive...there are enough negatives in adoption...

Kathy, I hear how much love and concern there is in your post. But our kids did lose their genetic families and that's a real loss. Not every adoptee, as you said, will experience that loss in the same way but it is a loss. I don't think there are tons of negatives in adoption (really, I know it seems ironic for me to say that but I just don't see it) so I don't feel threatened in saying that my daughter lost her first family. Much of adoption just is. It's just another way to be but that doesn't mean it doesn't have its own challenges.

For example, my daughter's people are from New Orleans, which is a culturally rich heritage. She lost that. I can't give that to her. It doesn't erase the joy of her cultural heritage with us but neither does that joy take away from the sadness. They are two separate events and they have separate consequences. Madison can be proud of all our family is and she can miss what she lost. (I don't know if she will -- be proud or miss -- that will be up to here.) One doesn't negate the other. Adoption is full of paradox and ambivalencee but that just makes life interesting.

BUT I think the experience is unique to every child. Some by their very nature struggle to adjust...some don't. But like Traci...just how significant is it really?

My best guess? Depends on the kid.

We brought him home about 7...all was well until 11 when he started to scream until about 6...and fell asleep from utter exhaustion. Loss? Could be. Why didn't he cry like that in the hospital though....he was alone much of the time. I won't ever know for sure. I was a very nieve first time adoptive Mom at the time. Well schooled in child devel...and care...had been doing that for years....that his problems could be adoption related never dawned on me at the time. Not once. Ped diagnosed colic which he had...for 6 mo...classic case. Once he put on a little weight he was an all around happy (very Mommy attached) little guy.

When I worked at shelter sometimes children would be very quiet and cautious and then when they got into shelter -- where they were safe from the abusive stuff happening at home -- they flipped out. But then, too, babies are sleepy when they are small and they wake up sometime within the first two weeks. Was your son just sleepy and then woke up intensely or was he feeling safe enough with you to let out his feelings of grief? I don't know. My daughter had colic, too, and I think it had to do with two things: missing Jessica and being a very active baby who wanted to move. (She was very driven to get mobile and was crawling at four months -- crazy I know.) My daughter is also very Mommy attached. I don't think adoption grief precludes attaching to adoptive parents. In fact I think that attentive parenting is a good way to help a child heal that wound because to have that first (primary) attachment disrupted must seem scary so having a parent (or two) who sticks around and is attentively parenting probably does a lot to rebuild that trust.

If you had never heard the theory of Primal Wound, what would have assumed it was?

I would have assumed she missed Jessica. Like I said, I have a bio son and I know how important I was to him the minute he was born. I only glanced at the primal wound stuff pre-adoption because I found it so scary and disheartening. (Heck, my mom who knows NOTHING about primal wound figured she missed Jessica. It just made sense to us.)

Sometimes ignorance IS bliss.

When we had tough clients at shelter my boss would say, "What an opportunity for growth!" And we'd say, "No more growth! We want to stay stuned and happy!" So I get what you're saying here!

This constantly crying fussy baby who had trouble eating, pooping, sleeping, changing environments, the car stopping, the car going, chaging arm positions, changing clothes, the sun setting, the sun rising...you get the picture! Had I been told about primal wound theory it may have pushed me over the edge....I was teetering there a number of times. I wanted so much to comfort my baby...and I was to a degree....he screamed louder if I wasn't holding him....I think that I would have joined him in constant crying if I would have thought we had a part in somehow wrecking him for life. Looking back I can see that he was colicy...he grew out of it. He also had trouble with transitions....we learned to deal with that. The combo of those to issues IMO was the cause of his crying. We learned to deal with those things by trial an error and things improved. I don't think his crying would have been any different had he lived with his bio familiy. He would have still had colic...he would still have had trouble with ANY kind of transition....he would have cried for hours....just like he did for us.

You have my sympathy. If Madison had been my first child it would have really undermined my confidence because of her crying. But here's the thing: You did NOT wreck him for life. Adoption does NOT wreck them for life. Honoring primal wound/adoption grief does NOT mean seeing an adopted child as permanently damaged. Absolutely NO. As someone said here, we all have our challenges and our griefs and as parents the more we now about them, the more we can help our children through them.

I vehemently deny the idea that Madison is damaged goods because of her beginnings. She is a strong, smart, beautiful child who has an extra developmental step in her life.

I cannot say if she would have been better or worse off had she not been adopted. I know that some kids are coming from situations where the adoptive parents can be more sure that adoption was "right" because of abuse issues or the like. However, the potential parenting issues (i.e., a first parent who uses drugs or has mental health issues, etc.) do not eliminate adoption grief. Adoption grief is more ... central than that. It's not about which family is better -- it's about how losing a family hurts even when that child is perhaps better off elsewhere. (This is a post I wrote about that: http://www.thiswomanswork.com/2006/08/09/andrew-asked/ ) With Madison my best guess is that had she stayed with Jessica she would have had some challenges that are different than these challenges. I can't say whether or not one way would have been easier but I don't care either -- this is what she has to contend with and so this is what we will deal with.

I don't feel less than her first mom -- as I said, it's not a contest. I don't feel like our happy act of adoption is ruined if I can see the downside of it for Madison. Like I've said, they are separate events. There is the surrender and loss of her first mom; there is her adoption and coming to our family. Grieving her first mom doesn't mean she doesn't love me. Loving me doesn't mean she shouldn't grieve her first mom.

If anything I feel MORE empowered when I know what the impact of Madison's adoption might be for her. I feel MORE ready to parent her and to love her through it. That primal wound entry? It wasn't negative to me -- it was positive because it showed that Madison has the strength and courage to express her sorrow and that we will deal with it. Since then I've noticed a change in her towards Jessica -- she is easier with her -- and (interestingly) she is more affectionate with me (and she was already an affectionate child). My guess with that is that she feels more trusting towards me. That's nothing but a good thing and I have absolute confidence in Madison to continue to grow into a strong, healthy, happy human being.

it is just hard sometimes and it does seem that "issues" oftne come up when we are tired, they are tired or you are busily managing 3 kids in a grocery store...mine suddenly out of the blue asked about her bfather...she was 5 at the time and I just let her go and say what she was feeling...partly because at the moment it couldn't have been further from my mind.

My son used to always bring up sex talk when I was trying to merge on the freeway! THAT's when he would go, "Hey mommy, where do babies come from?"

what would you have thought? Done? Realizing you can't unknow what you know.....so totally theorizing here. Not judging, or at least not trying to.

Like I said, I would have attributed it to missing Jessica but I might not have had the same words. And I might have been more afraid of projecting and less confidence in my intuition.


Dawn

[Kathy]

I came back here cause I was thinking in the shower about something Cam had said yesterday and now got some more things to digest in my brain. All good to do....but I do like your phrase...I just want to stay stunted and happy...

Camille, yesterday you talked about your adoptee lite status and not being able to talk about that with your Mom and how that impacted you. In the shower (do some of my best thinking there) I was thinking about how much our own "raising" impacts us as parents. How crucially important it is for you to have a relationship with Leah where she can talk freely abouther adoption. And so then I wondered what was it that try to do that I felt was missing in my childhood....and what was it that my Mother tried to do in her parenting that was misisng from her childhood. Which brought me back to loss. Holy cow it was a little bit depressing in there because I then begin to think what is it that I am missing with my own kids? KWIM?

I love these people with every thing that is in me....and hate to think about them someday saying...I sure wish my Mom would have.....

Dawn, thinking a bit on why Jacob was the way he was. I do think he was early. he was 5.13 at birth...small but not overly small...but scrawny! It was like his skin was pulled over his skeleton. I really think he wasn't "done" yet. And his nervous system just wasn't devel. all the way. Being born was a shock....and it is comforting to think that he did finally relax when he got home. I don't know that he missed bmom...other then sound and smell....she didn't have any out of womb contact....said she wasn't bonded adn didn't want to be. Don't get me wrong....his bmom was/is a warm hearted caring person....she was doing what she felt best at the time for her and for him. Jacob is very matter of fact with adoption issues....a bit like her perhaps...they get an idea in their head on how they are going to proceed and thats that. He wanted to meet them...we did...hasn't ever wanted to again. It was like his curiosity was settled...at least it has been for the last 3 yrs.

I do acknowledge the loss of what could have been. But still say, at least for my kids, that they did NOT lose their bfamilies all together. They are still out there and very easey to get ahold of. What they lost was a growing up relationship. If they choose to forgo an adult relationship...or if their bfamilies choose to forgo an adult relationship remains to be seen. But, they are not lost...they are still there....much like cousins I have and haven't seen for years and years. I didn't lose them. I know where they are.

Loss seems to be the word we are debating. I say loss of childhood experience....you say loss of bfamillies....which encompasses the loss of childhood experience. I think I am splitting things up more.

I do agree that the one doesn't have any thing to do with the other. What was decided for my chld at birth wasn't my decison. I think when I started this journey 8+ years ago I hadn't thought about it one way or the other....which at the time was probably a good thing. And better that I have now.

[camillessister]

Pep, Judy, et. al. -

So, I have to interject on behalf of my sister. My reaction may be a bit defensive, but really - how dare you be so disrespectful to my sister where I can witness it? You should at the very least expect a reaction from me.

Here's what I think: If any one of you found out that there was a post somewhere on the web that was all about you and something you said, your very FIRST reaction would be to read it and comment on it. Its not fair to expect that you can talk all about someone like that (and whether you admit it or not, making all kinds of judgements about that person and the kind of mother they are) and the expect that the post would be kept private from that person. Thats just gossip, and I would loose all respect for someone who allowed that... so if Camille did invite Dawn over, THAT would have been the respectful thing to do. I personally think its SNEAKY for those of you who wanted to feel free to be disrespectful to Dawn without allowing her to defend herself. And don't try to tell me you weren't being disrespectful - "insecure mother"? really. And even Judy saying "It's what you believe happened and that's okay." totally sounds so patronizing.

You guys are just upset that you've been caught being so disrespectful (something that happens on this forum more often that we'd all like to admit - I remember the Brad Pitt/Angelina Jolie thread wherein everyone talked about them like they weren't real people, only because its very unlikely they would read this forum) and now you are trying to make it seems like its someone else's fault.

After everything my sister has done for you after so many years. Shame on you. SHAME on you.

I know this post will make you mad and will cause lots of reaction - but I want to make it clear that I don't care because I love my sister more than I love you. And I also want to make it clear that anyone with a neutral point of view will see that you're only mad because you're embarassed.

[camillessister]

To Dawn:

I know my sister set up this forum for open respectful discussion, and I'm sorry this has turned out this way.

I would hope that you would not feel like you needed to leave after this thread is over. I would hope that you would stay and add your unique and enlightening point of view to everything that is discussed on all of the threads here.

[amom4life]

Leah~ I don't know what you mean when you say we are upset because we got caught being disrespectful. I never felt like I was being disrespectful to Dawn just not quite myself and not as open because of how I was feeling. And I certainly don't think I was caught at anything!

I'm not upset in the least that Dawn came here or that she was reading this thread...for me it was just the timing. As Sadie mentioned it did "appear" that she came here for other reasons that have already been mentioned. I certainly have nothing personal against Dawn and I never meant that I thought she should not be here, post here, or lurk here...I'm sure we have lots of lurkers and I know this is a public forum and is read by many.

When I said that Dawn believes that's what happened that night with her daughter and that 's okay I was not being "patronizing." I simply meant that that's her belief..it differs from mine, but its okay cause I'm not trying to change what she believes about it. I NEVER said that Dawn said Dawn was an insecure mother and I NEVER put down her mothering or parenting. Just as I was wrong about what was going on with this thread now that Cam and Dawn have spoken up..you are wrong about things that I have said.

I truly do not have any problem with Dawn being here at all..this is a public forum and everyone is welcome...like i said it was the timing that threw me and the "shutting down" statement . I did apologize to her for not being as friendly as I normally would be AND I did tell her is wasn't personal..because it's not. I haven't read her blog other than that one entry, but in reading her posts here I was beginning to like and respect her even though we don't agree on everything...and there are things that we do agree on.

Okay I now admit that I was wrong... things were not as they "appeared" to me. I understand that now that Cam and Dawn have explained and I want to say to you both that I'm truly sorry!

Cam ~ I always do think the best of you that is why the appearance of what I perceived was happening confused me and made me upset. Sometimes people you know can and do. do things out of character at times...that's true of myself also. I personally didn't think you were being sneaky and that was not my word. I was more feeling like this was really being pushed because the thread wasn't going how you would have liked and I guess I read that into it because you made the comment in your last post (before Dawn came) that it (primal wound) wasn't what you wanted to talk about...then the thread was quiet a bit..then Dawn was here. Can you see at all how I might have thought what I did? Contrived was my word, but I was not calling YOU contrived..that's how I was feeling about the thread not you as a person. Recently on another thread fun was being poked at about the way some of us believe on a certain topic..it was you and another member...I was offended and hurt and said so on that thread...I was completely ignored, but I didn't jump down your throats and haven't said another word since...nor do I hold it against you or the other person. I'm sorry this hurt you I don't like hurting my friends, but at the same time I can't help how I was feeling..it was bothering me.

I know Cam has done a lot for us in building this site(giving us a safe place to be and discuss things) and keeping it running so smoothly as well as her friendship that I do cherish. But it works both ways...we have also done a lot for Cam....it may be in ways that can't be seen but it's there. I appreciate so so much everything she has done here, but I don't think it needs to be thrown in our faces when we don't agree or have a misunderstanding.

And for crying out loud! How long is that Jolie thread going to be brought up?? It's history! I've seen other threads pop up since about stars and haven't seen any griping about it.

Once again Cam and Dawn I do apologize and ask you both to forgive me for imputing false motive on you even though it was something I was doing not doing intentionally to be mean, nasty , or hurt you.

Judy

[Deanna]

To continue with the intended nature of this thread, here is yet another post from an adoptive mom's blog about her account of Primal Wound with her daughter.
http://afrindiemum.typepad.com/afrindiemum/2006/08/the_thing_is.html

[Kathy]

Disclaimer...dont know this mom and totally NOT discrediting her on a personal level.

BUT going to play devils advocate here....could it be coincidence? Is there any heredity type issue here? Like I said...I dont know her or this situation just speculating. But I thinking about the 10 kids I have regular contact with that have joined their families through adoption...along with all the ones on here on teatime...and can't think of any of them with either of those health problems.

My biological nephew struggles with ecezema....I have bits of it...and greatful to not have passed those things on to them

[Camille]

Judy - Thank you for apologizing.

That second article. I don't know if I can take the physical illnesses. I agree that primal wound exists obviously but I don't think I can go so far as to connect psychosomatic illnesses.

I'll have to digest that for awhile

[icunurse]

Let me toss this question out there - can you grieve for something that you have never known? I am not saying it in reference to losing bparents (as the children "know" they have them and lost them or see them and "know" who they are), but rather how can they grieve, at such a young age, when they don't know any different? For example, I can "grieve" the loss of my grandfather (he died shortly after I was born) in a "he was a nice guy, he was my grandpa, I wish I could have met him" sort of way. But how can I "grieve" the days we didn't go fishing together or the tales that he could have shared or the times we could have spent together when I never even had them in the first place? I can also grieve the loss of my grandma, who I did know and love, but, again, how can I grieve for all the things we didn't do together if I don't have a baseline of what I'm missing out on?

Can a child, especially at a younger age before they can imagine a life with their bparents, really truly and deeply grieve something that they don't even know about? Yes, a child can miss someone, just as they miss seeing a grandparent, a friend, whatever. But can a tiny person who can't comprehend so many big concepts (birth, death, etc) really feel the loss of something they never had?

[Deanna]

I think, keyword think, because I don't know, that part of the theory of primal wound is that they do know "it". They are familiar with their natural mother, her sound, her heartbeat, etc. Again, I don't know if I believe it, and Dawn I'm sure could explain it better, but that's what I think the grieving is referring to.