Very Interesting Adoption Article

[Kathy]

Good points Traci!

I think IMO that the answer is no. I really just don't see it. I really don't. I do see how a baby can miss a sound or smell early on...and the memory could potentially come back when they see or smell that again...and how the "loss" of that familiar sight or smell can trigger things to what degree being based soully on how that person is by nature...but in the scheme of things...just how big a thing is it? How much grieving really is done? How much of it is just general shock of being born. I always thought the just the loudness of everything could take days to get used to. Not to mention lights, smells and just all of your senses being assulted continually those first few days after 9 mo of realtive peace. Being born is just rough!

I think consistant caring immediately is key. It helps anyone deal with this assult. Ideally the bmom would be this person as they start with something familiar. Baby is learning TONS almost immediately though...and will quickly assimilate with another equally caring individual and quickly rely on that person for support. We often call this person "Dad"....in adoptive situations...its a new parent.

And there is an adjustment that occurs..minor for some, I still can NOT think of one adjustment issue for my 2 DD...and she was in foster care for 6 weeks. We met her in the hospital for the first time and her bmom introduced us as her parents...she looked at us dead on like, "OK...so thats what it is" And when I went to pick her up it was like, "oh there you are!" I'm serious, she barely broke stride....still hasn't...although leaving her is not so easy...she keeps very good tabs on me these days.

My first DD slept for days when we first brought her home. I knew a tiny bit about this grief business then...and I also knew a whole lot more about bonding....combined with my background in child develop I realized that she had had to many caregivers those first 4 days and she was using sleep to cope...worked great for her as I woke her to eat and back to sleep she went. So I stopped feeding her until she finally got up the gumption to cry. Longest bit of pacing I ever did in my life. But it worked! She "woke up" ! Now, some may say, she was grieving. Maybe, but I firmly believe that this being her 3rd stop since birth had something to do with. She went from a hospital setting....to a house with 8 kids...to our house. She is a fairly passive person...and she just shut down. She still loves to sleep.

As yet....I'm still not convinced that adoption has much to do with these issues at these young ages. I'm just not. It doesn't gel with what I believe have learned in regard to child develop. I think most of these issues can be explained in other ways just as easily.

I would be interested to know just where the author of the article Deanna posted got her stats. Not that I put much stock in them....one thing I learned in stats class in college is just how bogus they can be. You can pretty much make them say whatever you want.

Now...when kids start to reach adolecence it could potentially be a whole new ballgame. Self indentity....then I think the coulda's could enter. Life is always rosier at someones elses house when your that age isn't it? All kinds of issues then.

[Teralyn]

WOW!!! I am not sure what I think. It seems that most have taken offense to the term "Primal Wound." I will admit, I am offended by the idea of the primal wound. I have not read much on it and what I have read has basically blamed every non-positive adoption experience on it.

In our foster care classes they talked about bonding and attachment. The studies they used state that bonding can only happen in utero. That many children who are adopted from birth or at a very young age have as older children/adults picked their birth mother out of a croud. That this "bonding" does not go away. Now, there is no attachment to the birth mother. Attachment comes from having a relationship with someone.
They says that this "bonding" is phsyilogical and attachment is emotional. How does this fit into all of this??? Any thoughts???

Teralyn

[Deanna]

That many children who are adopted from birth or at a very young age have as older children/adults picked their birth mother out of a croud.

Family resemblance perhaps?

I know when my son was born I was the first to hold him. I ripped off my bra like it was on fire and put his brand new naked, wrinkled little body to my chest and held him close. The nurses encourage skin to skin contact and told me what to do. It felt so natural once I held him. His clear eyes looked up at me at one point and he seemed so calm and so peaceful. I commented to my husband that he looked so wise at that moment. Was he comfortable with me because he had been hearing my voice for three weeks while "Jill" was with us? I don't know. Was it that he sensed "Jill" wasn't happy about her pregnancy and had made up her mind that she wasn't ready for him or wanting him? I don't know and hadn't even thought of that till someone mentioned something like that in this thread. All I know is I've felt very bonded an attached from the moment he was born (actually before then). It seems to me that he has felt very bonded and attached to me from the moment he was born. I don't think he misses anything. If he did, I would admit it because it wouldn't make me less of a mother. But I honestly don't feel it, see it or sense it in any way.

He was literally minutes old in this photo. Right now as I type this he is sleeping on my chest much in the same manner. Clothes on both of us though.

[Kathy]

I feel much the same Deanna. I really feel my kids are both bonded and attached to me. Family resemblence is as good as any guess...I would realyl have questioned the authencicty of this "study". I staunchly disagree with the idea that bonding only occurs inutero.

[Teralyn]

Who knows??? They teach this in the PRIDE classes. I have never read the study.

Ter

[Pinkdreamin]

OMG - what is going on here?

Do you all realize that in ONE DAY some of you have so much as thrown a friend to the lions? I can't believe that some here are at what seems each other's throats.

I read the original "article" and refused to comment because I am so opinionated. Yes, this was a good debate topic. Yes, it sparked many personal beliefs and opinions. I read this from page 1 tonight - except the original article - I personally couldn't stomach it again - personal opinion here.

In the beginning, I misread too that Cam invited Dawn to this debate. It was how it was worded that made me felt that way. So, whatever. I also didn't realize about how the tracking was done and was surprised to see Dawn here. Yes this is the internet and a public forum. Yes she asked for help to sign up because it wasn't working. Maybe things could have been worded differently exposing the fact that it was broken and Cam fixed it enabling Dawn to embellish her thoughts and opinions. Maybe if it was done that way, others would not be offended. I realize that it was later explained, but not at first.

Yes, comments were made and feelings were hurt. Apologies were also made when others posted how they took things. That is what ADULTS do. And there were those that accepted the apologies.

Hind sight is 20/20. The funny thing is that when I first read "it" I was going to post that this can get real ugly. Unfortunately, it did a little bit. There were also a lot of good discussions here which is why Cam - and thank you - set up this site for all of us. Each one of us for the most part has either been banned or ridiculed at other sites for their beliefs or race/gender they want or don't want to adopt. That is what made Tea Time so wonderful. The ability to be open and honest and know that you were not going to be ridiculed here, but supported in your personal beliefs.

Just as I am having communication issues with my teen, so has there been some communication issues here. I hope that we can get back to being sisters and family again. Maybe, if you feel you stepped on someones toes before and possibly could have been more tactful or used better or clearer wording - I am sure a PM to the person might be appreciated.

Again, this is only my personal opinion - what ever it is worth! I am coming in on this thankfully at the end and I am seeing a lot of hurt, misunderstood feelings here.




PS. Deanna - that is a beautiful picture of you and Jake.

[Camille]

I've been thinking about that article and then I went back and read some the comments there. One "commenter" posted a story about her son breaking out in eczema being gone from them for a few days. Very interesting! I know psyc. illness occur and can be very real... I don't know if I can make the leap to it being adoption related. I think that one is a step to far for me. Especially with newborn adoption, I guess. In an older child adoption - I can see that coming about.

Traci - That's a good question - How does a newborn know it isn't SUPPOSED to be different when they're born? That takes me back to wandering how it effects that baby if the bmom cuddles/loves/takes care of after birth for a few days vs. not doing all that.

In that case I can see the loss. If you've been alive 3 days and suddenly everything you know in the world changes - there's a new person, smell, voice etc taking care of you - depending on the baby's personality - this might be a traumatic change. It's certainly a big one! I'm not sure what I think about that. I wish there was some study to read about it!

Self indentity....then I think the coulda's could enter. Life is always rosier at someones elses house when your that age isn't it? All kinds of issues then.

That's a good point Kathy - We're talking about little kids here but really there's no avoiding that AT SOME POINT a kid does have to process they aren't biologically related to their parents - in a society that places a ridiculous amount of importance on genetics.

Just the other day I was at my mom's and I found myself saying to my mom (who had made salsa and given it all away without saving me a single jar!! ) "ME! Your first born! Your flesh and blood??? I don't get a jar??" And in the back of my head I'm thinking. "ugh" - Dang it. I shouldn't say things like that. Leah is my first "born" but I didn't give birth - and she's not my flesh and blood but that doesn't make her any less important - of course! - to me. I was frustrated with myself but it's just so natural in our society.

Anyway - again! - depending on the child's personality and how they assimilate this information... the child could have difficulties - I think those things are encompassed by the "primal wound theory", right?

Our problem seems to be is that the full primal wound theory is soooo much. And that FULL theory is just too much to stomach most of the time. But I think there IS truth in it. You just have to adjust it for each person.

But all stages of life are that way, no? Some sail through potty training - others take eons and have great difficulty. Some sail through learning algebra - some just never do. Some sail through adolescence altogether - some people barely survive it.

So some kids sail through having a "primal wound"... and for some it isn't so easy.

That makes sense to me.

[Teralyn]

Thanks Patty!!!

Teralyn

[_dl_]

It’s taken me multiple days to read through this thread and I must confess, I haven’t read every post. To be honest, some of the posts I had to scroll through, as from the perspective of one that was adopted, some of the posts totally disgusted me.

As one that was adopted, I relate to PepRMntpPatti120’s post:

I do not feel this child (whom I am assuming is about 2 or 3 years of age) was being anything other than a toddler! I have seen scenerios such as this over and over. . . the person or object they are crying out for - is almost always the person they saw last, the child they were playing with earlier or the object they may have been holding or playing with. This is so common! When this happens, we console a child, help them feel better, allow them to share their feelings, until they are awake and alert - when that happens all around them becomes good!

I believe 2 or sometimes even 3 years of age is too young to even attempt to explain "adoption", "birthmothers" or for heaven sake, "uteruses"!

As a child, I was very close to my Aunt and one of my cousins ~ adoptive. I’ve remained close to them my entire life and even after my parents and my Aunt’s death consider my cousin my closest relative. My Mom told me ~ and I actually remember ~ crying as a child when they would leave our house or I would leave their house.

While I know that in recent years there has been a move to be PC and anatomically correct, I too personally find it to young for a child ~ a toddler ~ to comprehend and understand “uterusesâ€￾. Perhaps I was ‘slow’, but I didn’t understand ‘uteruses’ until I was much older than a toddler.

I read posts of aparents asking their children if they “miss their bioparentâ€￾ if the child seems sad. I’m so glad that my parents never transferred that emotion onto me.

As PepRMntpPatti120 asked, “is she [the child] reacting in a way to make up for problems or feelings she herself is having trouble with?
Children are stronger and more adaptable than we adults. In many situations, the child is absolutely fine - the parent is a wreck. It's so easy to twist a situation or blow it out of proportion to meet our own needs.
Without realizing it, this does more damage than good.â€￾

Many children ~ both adopted and non adopted can have a ‘difficult’ day. If it’s automatically assumed that a child that was adopted is having a ‘difficult’ day because they miss their bioparents, then what possible reason could a child that was not adopted have for having a ‘difficult’ day?

I share Deanna’s concerns “but I do worry that people project their feelings onto their kids.â€￾ As icunurse posted: “I truly think that if you believe or focus enough on something, good or bad, it will happen. If DS has problems later on in life, we'll deal with them. I acknowledge the primal wound...I just don't think that my child is destined to be doomed by it.â€￾

I read some of the posts by parents ~ that are focusing on being ‘adoptive parents’ instead of simply being parents ~ and I’m concerned that in some cases they are creating a self fulfilling prophecy.

I’m personally very glad that my parents did not strive to be good ‘adoptive parents’. They simply strived to be good parents ~ which I believe they were. As I was raised in a different time period, perhaps I’m missing something, but I honestly do NOT relate at all to the talk of ‘Primal Wound’’. I was left at the hospital by bioparents and I was then in six different care situations before being adopted at 13 months. I was in the last two foster homes for six months and seven months. I’m not clear at which point the proponents of the ‘Primal Wound’ feel the ‘Primal Wound’ begins for a fetus ~ is it at conception? Is it at some point in utero? Is it at birth?

My bioparents ‘saw’ me at the hospital ~ that’s it. Am I more likely to have a ‘wound’ at being removed from a foster home that I was in for six months ~ seven months? Or, am I harboring a ‘wound’ from a few months in ‘utero’. I find the statement that an adopted child misses the ‘smell’ really odd. I was with my stepdaughter when she gave birth. The ‘smell’ is not something I believe anyone would miss.

Bottom line ~ I don’t remember any life prior to my life with my parents. I’ve never felt that I ‘grieved’ for the ‘loss’ of 'parents' until my parents (adoptive) died when they were in their 80’s and I was in my 50’s and I grieved for the loss of my parents at that time. Certainly other children may have a different experience, but this is my experience.

[Ragan]

I promised myself I wouldn't get into this thread......but I just wanted to tell dl THANK YOU!!! I sooo love reading your posts and hearing that children, who happen to have been adopted, can live perfectly happy healthy lives

So, now that I'm here I have to point out that my child that was adopted was not colicky, yet my last biological child WAS. I think it all comes down to the fact that our children are INDIVIDUALS. No one theory is going to prove true for all of them, and no one parenting technique is going to magically work for all of them. But hopefully, if we just try to be good PARENTS, they'll all end up being happy, healthy, and well adjusted.

[blueyes113]

Like Ragan, I have also avoided posting on this thread but have decided that I will.

I would also like to thank dl for her post. An adoptees view was sorely needed here even if we all are individuals.

I have three things from this thread that I would like to comment on. The first is how easy it is to put words in young children's mouths. I am just going to relate an incident that happened this spring when I thought I was asking open-ended questions.

When I picked Lindsay, age 4, up from pre-school one day late last spring, she wasn't very happy. I began asking her how school was with the usual questions. When I asked her if she played with her friends on the playground, she said no. I asked her why not and she said because they were playing in the sun. I asked her why she couldn't play in the sun and she said it was because she wasn't wearing sunscreen. (Now the playground is mostly in the shade in the morning so I had no idea where she got this idea from.) So I asked her if someone had told her she needed sunscreen and she said yes. "Did Mrs C say you needed sunscreen?" "No" "Did Mrs M say you needed sunscreen?" "No" "Did one of the other teachers say you needed sunscreen?" "Yes" "Which one?" "I don't know her name." Luckily, I know all of the teachers quite well having worked there before Lindsay was born so I had no problem asking them. My question to the teachers was "Who told Lindsay she needed sunscreen" because I fully believed I had the true story from my daughter. So I asked Mrs C and she said no one. Mrs C and Mrs M were the only ones out with their classes and neither had told her that. We came to the conclusion that Lindsay had seen Mrs C putting sunscreen on one of the other girls and had used that as an explanation for not playing with the other girls, and that little Miss Ch (age 3) had once again informed Lindsay that she couldn't play with them that day. (Yes, cliques in pre-school. Ugh!) I came to the conclusion that Lindsay was told by one of the teachers that she couldn't play in the sunny areas without sunscreen because my "open" questions were not fully open and because Lindsay needed an explanation she felt more comfortable with. She said Yes to the questions I asked when the answer was proven to be No. Luckily, I was able to find the actual cause of her upset. Confirming information is obviously not possible when asking a young child about an abstract idea that they probably don't fully understand.

Secondly, I have also noticed that as Lindsay has gotten older, she takes longer to recover from her crying outbursts. She now gets more upset because she knows she has lost control. She flat out says "I can't stop!" The loss of control becomes more upsetting than the initial upset.

And lastly I would like to comment on young children remembering the bmoms smell. This past weekend we went to visit Christopher's bio family. Just for background, Christopher was held and loved by bmom for about 24 hours in the hospital (yes, they released them at 24 hours), and then on 2 other separate occasions within a 2 week span while we waited for the okay to return home. He had not seen her since then until this weekend. If this sense of familiar smell is very strong in the young, I would have expected him to be more comfortable around her than other strangers. There would have been a familiarity. There was none. He wouldn't even let her hold him until very late in the day and I had gone out of my way to have them near each other whenever I could. She was just someone nice who had a necklace he could grab when he did finally allow her to hold him. And even then, he wanted Mama back very quickly. I was just happy he allowed her to hold him long enough for me to get a picture of the two of them together.

The other thing we have to remember about smell is that it is a survival technique in baby mammals. It's how the young find the mother's milk. So I ask the question: Is the familiar smell the mother or the breast milk?

[icunurse]

Not jumping back in, but just wanted to thank dl for adding her post - I've been hoping an adoptee would join in.

[Kathy]

Dale - You know, that is very interesting...maybe it is the milk...that would make sense to me.

DL - great to see you! One of my favorite people who once happened to be adopted way back when Thank you for the reminder to use the words "good parent" instead of "good adoptive parent" Cause that is what I am...Mom to my 3 beautiful children!

Ragan - agree 100% adoption does NOT IMO have any thing to do with colic. Ask my SIL who battled it for a good solid 6 mo...the worst I have ever witnessed.

and those who are staying out of the fray so to speak...DON"T this is a great way to learn and think...

[PepRMntPatti120]

DL - I truly enjoyed your posts! Thank you for your thoughts.. I found it interesting to "read" the thoughts from an adoptee's point of view.


In addition -

I want you ALL to know something. If I could go back in time and change things - I would not have posted on this thread. Gosh - I wouldn't have intentionally hurt someone if I was being paid big bucks to do it. I realize it could of been handled using better judgement. I wrote a private letter of apology to Cam. And now, I would like to apologize to all of you for not handling it appropriately.

I was feeling my opinions/thoughts were not being accepted and in a way, I felt pushed up against a wall. This was confusing to me - for it seemed she really wanted to hear our opinions. I should of spoken to Cam privately - I am sure it would of had a much happier ending that way. But, I didn't - and I am sorry. I am sorry for any misunderstandings or miscommunications.

Regarding Dawn - I don't believe I ever said Dawn was insecure. I do believe I was posting my thoughts and said perhaps she "may" be. I do not know her - so as a person I can not pass judgement on her. I was strictly stating my opinion of the happenings in one article. It's rare I dislike anyone - I am the type of person who likes and accepts everyone for who they are... including Dawn. But, Dawn - I am sorry.

You've all been great and wonderful. I always had a feeling I made some friends for life on Tea Time. But, I knew it was true by the overwhelming support and hugs I received during my "Triplets" situation. Thank you!

Love you all - Pep

[Teralyn]

dl Thanks for the "insight". You have such a way with words!!!

Pep ~ We all have said things in a way we wished we hadn't. Sometimes we get emotional over a topic or caught off guard.

Teralyn